Curse

Nurse With Wound · Oct 05, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I already sold my account. GL HF to all you nabs here

Thats not good to hear this

Shame that we are loosing best players out there, just because someone decided to please all those pve scrubs. One thing is sure, CBA to play HA after the change, we'll move to gvg and will try to find our place there.

Thom · Oct 05, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

The argument about holding builds is that super-specialized characters are a greater liablity in lower maps. You can still bring a full holding team, but you won't be able to kill a fly. Teams which want to hold and win will need more flexibity on holding characters. You can still run a standard 3 monk backline with a ritualist, warder and spirit spammer, but a bunch of noobs with a good pressure spike will have more than enough time to force an error.

Skills like channelling, aegis, heal party and wards will be less efficient. Holding builds were loaded with these type of skills.

@Tombs hardcore players. HA was designed to be the top Arena where casual and competitive play could safely intersect. Right now it is almost exclusively the haven of people like yourselves. Casual PvPers stick to the arenas and AB since it is quicker to get in with a higher probablilty of success. GvG palyers rarely frequent HA because it isn't a good place to train new players and only vaguely relates to the skill set required in GvG. HA in its current form is more of a liablity to GW than it is an attraction to the game.

There has been an interesting distinction made between GvG player skill and HA player skill. I think it has to do with a concentration trade off between tactical awareness and micro. More sophisticated micro is possible if you aren't focusing on positioning, perfect micro is hard to maintain when you are trying to make tactical/strategic decisions. Obviously you're best players are tactically aware and micromanage effortlessly knowing exactly how to exploit energy and skill availablity. For the rest of us, we tend to develop the skills which are most rewarded in our environment. GvG teaches you to anticipate the flow of battle and position yourself accordingly. HA teaches you to anticipate opponents skill usage and tactics involved in using skills. This is all a bit more complex, but there is definite adaptation to PvP environment. I really don't think HA will lose much of this "flavor".

subterra · Oct 05, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Thats not good to hear this

Shame that we are loosing best players out there, just because someone decided to please all those pve scrubs.

I truly believe there is some truth behind the above statement - HoH was ruined to accomodate either A. Rank "I cant get a group" whiners or B. New players that will be gained from Nightfall. I don't believe this was an attempt to revitalize HA.

6v6 will be next to impossible to hold for any amount of time and isnt this what HoH is all about? You will simply not have the utilities available to defend X amount of teams you will face with X amount of builds.

Nurse With Wound · Oct 05, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterra

HoH was ruined to accomodate either A. Rank "I cant get a group" whiners or B. New players that will be gained from Nightfall. I don't believe this was an attempt to revitalize HA.

That is so true. But thats not the saddest thing out there. The jealousy, envy and all the insults in this thread are. We've been called "scum", "whiners", and all we do is trying to defend out favorite arena.

When the best of us leave, all of you "cant find a group", "zomg rank discrimination", "build xxx is overpowered, NERF!" will have their happy hour in ruins of HA. Until you get bored of HA, and will start a new campaing of dumbing up the game - maybe gvg will be your next target? Beware, the envious pve masses will be ready to strike again and ruin it for someone else.

PS . Best of luck Mental Leteci in the real world!

Thom · Oct 05, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterra

I truly believe there is some truth behind the above statement - HoH was ruined to accomodate either A. Rank "I cant get a group" whiners or B. New players that will be gained from Nightfall. I don't believe this was an attempt to revitalize HA.

6v6 will be next to impossible to hold for any amount of time and isnt this what HoH is all about? You will simply not have the utilities available to defend X amount of teams you will face with X amount of builds.

If the HA community were vital and growing, these changes wouldn't be necessary. The HA community has been neither vital nor growing. "Revitalize" means to bring new life to something; clearly theses changes were designed to bring new blood. You may call them "I can't get a group" whiners and noobs, but they are the people who will make up the next generation of hardcore HA players. You can also include in this group GvG players and glad point farmers, who largely avoid HA.

The experience for most new people in HA is the inability to group up. If they do manage to find a group, they will likely get smoked in there first match or end up in a 20 minute stalemate with a holding team, since good PuG rarely take a total newbie. Non-HA guilds taking new players won't experience all that much success either. On the off chance that a player has a good experience in tombs and gets rank 1, unless they get into a HA guild (which normally requires significant rank) they won't be able to conviently PuG until until they have about rank 6. At this point most everyone not in a guild devoted to HA gives up. If you are in a guild full of relative noobs, gvg is more rewarding anyway if you have 8 players-- GvG sets you up with even competition and gives you more faction. If you just want an emote, glads titles are more meaningful and easier to get starting form scratch-- not an emote but close enough.

Basically there is no reason why anyone besides the super elite should play tombs right now.

Think the first X=20 and the second X=5. This means that one team enjoys there time playing HA on an extremely boring build, but the many teams they defeat are totally wasting their time since holding builds are excessively difficult to remove. The advantage in HoH should be 60%-20%-20% not 90-5-5; winning halls once should be rewarded but not infinitely if you have the right build. In 6v6, the holding team must only force a stalemate or kill opponents heros. Holding teams still has the rez advantage and the closer rez shrine if removed.

@Nurse-- Most of the players here are pvp/gvg players. The masses attacking gvg isn't a problem because it is totally accessable for players of all skill levels in a guild.

ZiegDivine · Oct 05, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

If the HA community were vital and growing, these changes wouldn't be necessary. The HA community has been neither vital nor growing. "Revitalize" means to bring new life to something; clearly theses changes were designed to bring new blood. You may call them "I can't get a group" whiners and noobs, but they are the people who will make up the next generation of hardcore HA players. You can also include in this group GvG players and glad point farmers, who largely avoid HA.

The experience for most new people in HA is the inability to group up. If they do manage to find a group, they will likely get smoked in there first match or end up in a 20 minute stalemate with a holding team, since good PuG rarely take a total newbie. Non-HA guilds taking new players won't experience all that much success either. On the off chance that a player has a good experience in tombs and gets rank 1, unless they get into a HA guild (which normally requires significant rank) they won't be able to conviently PuG until until they have about rank 6. At this point most everyone not in a guild devoted to HA gives up. If you are in a guild full of relative noobs, gvg is more rewarding anyway if you have 8 players-- GvG sets you up with even competition and gives you more faction. If you just want an emote, glads titles are more meaningful and easier to get starting form scratch-- not an emote but close enough.

Basically there is no reason why anyone besides the super elite should play tombs right now.

Think the first X=20 and the second X=5. This means that one team enjoys there time playing HA on an extremely boring build, but the many teams they defeat are totally wasting their time since holding builds are excessively difficult to remove. The advantage in HoH should be 60%-20%-20% not 90-5-5; winning halls once should be rewarded but not infinitely if you have the right build. In 6v6, the holding team must only force a stalemate or kill opponents heros. Holding teams still has the rez advantage and the closer rez shrine if removed.

@Nurse-- Most of the players here are pvp/gvg players. The masses attacking gvg isn't a problem because it is totally accessable for players of all skill levels in a guild.

Translation:

Hey, screw all the people that spent their time (that they paid for) playing in HA, getting good, forming a friends list, developing and learning how to play builds. We're going to flush you ****ers down the toilet, "revitalize" the HA community (get hella new people in here) and reset the rank/fame without actually doing so (after all, there ARE many ways to skin a cat).

Boofhead · Oct 05, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

That is so true. But thats not the saddest thing out there. The jealousy, envy and all the insults in this thread are. We've been called "scum", "whiners", and all we do is trying to defend out favorite arena.

When the best of us leave, all of you "cant find a group", "zomg rank discrimination", "build xxx is overpowered, NERF!" will have their happy hour in ruins of HA. Until you get bored of HA, and will start a new campaing of dumbing up the game - maybe gvg will be your next target? Beware, the envious pve masses will be ready to strike again and ruin it for someone else.

PS . Best of luck Mental Leteci in the real world!

The real saddest thing out there is that you think the only players supporting the change are low-ranked scrubs and "can't-find-a-group-rank-discrimination" whiners. You just ignore the posts from supporters who don't fit into these categories because that defeats your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiegDivine

Hey, screw all the people that spent their time (that they paid for) playing in HA, getting good, forming a friends list, developing and learning how to play builds. We're going to flush you ****ers down the toilet, "revitalize" the HA community (get hella new people in here) and reset the rank/fame without actually doing so (after all, there ARE many ways to skin a cat).

Hey, guess what? People will still have friends lists with 6v6 HA, they can still develop and learn to play builds and get good. I don't see how this change in any way "flushes them down the toilet" or resets rank/fame. Many ways to skin a cat indeed.

ZiegDivine · Oct 05, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Hey, guess what? People will still have friends lists with 6v6 HA, they can still develop and learn to play builds and get good. I don't see how this change in any way "flushes them down the toilet" or resets rank/fame. Many ways to skin a cat indeed.

Did you not read his argument? I took the assumptions that were there and incorporated them into my translation. One of them is that a lot of people will leave HA (Mental Leteci is a good example of that) thus the rank/fame reset. Another is that this abscence of good players will eliminate the rank discrimination and "revitalize" the HA community with a lot of noobs.

Nurse With Wound · Oct 05, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

The real saddest thing out there is that you think the only players supporting the change are low-ranked scrubs and "can't-find-a-group-rank-discrimination" whiners. You just ignore the posts from supporters who don't fit into these categories because that defeats your point.

Because such posts are a minority in this thread. Most of support comes from gvg players on ego trips ( "you're scum, whiners" ), and envious RA/PVE noobs.

Those who oppose the change in this thread are usually the best of the best tombs players ( i'm too humble to consider my guild as such, talking about sOap, EaT, PUFF, and Err7 players who posted here - some were even banned for this ( hi EaT Macros! ) ) . And no, we dont bspike or IWAY. Its like HA equivalent of [EVIL], [iQ], [Te]. We know whats going on in there, and developers choose to ignore us, and mods tried to remove our concerns from those boards, and silence us ( two previous threads with many posts from us deleted ). Paragraph 22 ftw....Makes you think about future of the game...

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 05, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Those who oppose the change in this thread are usually the best of the best tombs players ( i'm too humble to consider my guild as such, talking about sOap, EaT, PUFF, and Err7 players who posted here - some were even banned for this ( hi EaT Macros! ) ) . And no, we dont bspike or IWAY. Its like HA equivalent of [EVIL], [iQ], [Te]. We know whats going on in there, and developers choose to ignore us, and mods tried to remove our concerns from those boards, and silence us ( two previous threads with many posts from us deleted ).

When there were major changes to GvG a few weeks ago, EviL, iQ and Te didn't QQ on the forums. They adapted and continued to be the best. The guilds in question seem unwilling to do the same, oddly enough. Maybe they're just worried that they won't still be the best if HA becomes something other than a defense-filled holding fest.

JR has already explained why he deleted the previous, and why people were banned. Look on the first page if you want to read his explanation. I wouldn't expect another.

Any current and future posts going on about how GW is dead, we should all play WoW, ect are being deleted. We're talking about a controversial change to a single PvP gametype here. Even if everyone who frequently plays Tombs left the game entirely, it would still only be a fairly small subset of the population. This is an important change which will shape the future of Tombs, but that kind of hyperbola doesn't belong in this or any other thread.

s w o r d y · Oct 05, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

the only ones that are crying foul are the ones that need a fame number in their titles list to delude themselves about their ability

Black Strobe · Oct 05, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Those who oppose the change in this thread are usually the best of the best tombs players...

"best tombs players": In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

There is nearly no competition in HA at the moment. Those of the selfproclaimed "best tombs players" who can't deal with such a change, who fail to adapt, who fear to lose their monopol of boredom can go and cry me a river. This will seperate the boys from the men.

There are many expierienced players in this thread who fully support the change, and to be honest - i rather listen to Ensigns insight than giving a red engine about Mental Letecis whineposts. And you should do the same.

Nurse With Wound · Oct 05, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

When there were major changes to GvG a few weeks ago, EviL, iQ and Te didn't QQ on the forums. They adapted and continued to be the best.

Sorry friend, but shortening match to 20 minutes, and taking one brainless boduguard cant be compared to ripping two players from the team, and COMPLEATLY changing the game mode we're discussing.

Boofhead · Oct 05, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Because such posts are a minority in this thread. Most of support comes from gvg players on ego trips ( "you're scum, whiners" ), and envious RA/PVE noobs.

Those who oppose the change in this thread are usually the best of the best tombs players ( i'm too humble to consider my guild as such, talking about sOap, EaT, PUFF, and Err7 players who posted here - some were even banned for this ( hi EaT Macros! ) ) . And no, we dont bspike or IWAY. Its like HA equivalent of [EVIL], [iQ], [Te]. We know whats going on in there, and developers choose to ignore us, and mods tried to remove our concerns from those boards, and silence us ( two previous threads with many posts from us deleted ). Paragraph 22 ftw....Makes you think about future of the game...

The "best of the best" tombs players are constantly changing, and the game is constantly changing - evolve with it, or die.

Mental Leteci · Oct 05, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Strobe

There are many expierienced players in this thread who fully support the change, and to be honest - i rather listen to Ensigns insight than giving a red engine about Mental Letecis whineposts. And you should do the same.

Ok,so I and rest of the people who play HA for 16 months are whiners cause we don't agree with this and you're not cause you do? Are you stupid? Also,I never called myself 'best HA player'. There is no such thing as 'best HA player' cause it's a team game. When will you understand that this has nothing to do with adapting. We could all adapt,there's no doubt about it,but the thing is that I don't want to adapt. I don't like 6v6 game style and that's it. All players who play HA constantly know what I'm talking about,you can stfu and talk for yourself ok? Don't tell me what I think and can I adapt or not. You never seen me playing or played with me to judge.

Jha Jha · Oct 05, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badboy Thrasher

They say this will introduce a whole new lot of people that hasn't done HA or other PvP than RA, I fear it's going to make it easier for the experienced people to kick the unexperienced ones asses...

Perfectly said..thats is Exactly whats going to happen. Whatever you guys said right there I hope people engrave it into their memories....Its going to give us, higher ranked people that know tombs and every map by heart a big advantage...fame aint even the issue because with more people playing it will be less skips and we can do close to full fame runs and possibly a few hoh wins and then some....I cannot wait to be honest. Dont get wrong even smart players make mistakes and we wont win it all, well still lose to unranked people..everyone loses. but its alrdy set...so all you pvers, taer,raers, and lower rank people come up..gona be really hard for you guys and those who love tombs will make sure of it

...Im gona enjoy this eather way...the only reason why im still following up on this forum is because of great comic relief that jr and squishy give me...its so funny to read their opinions even know they know nothing about tombs..(ive seen yall in gvg also LOL gg)

p.s. this argument is stalemate...nobody on the internet..specialy this site will agree with other and all you people know it

-Loki- · Oct 05, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Sorry friend, but shortening match to 20 minutes, and taking one brainless boduguard cant be compared to ripping two players from the team, and COMPLEATLY changing the game mode we're discussing.

Spoken like someone who never plays any decent level of GvG. Losing 10 minutes hurt. Alot. Losing a bodyguard hurt. Alot. Those two simple changes made a huge impact on how GvG is played, because alot of pervious builds no longer worked. I'm not going to say it was or wasn't as huge a change as the tombs change, but it was no trivial change they made.

Franco · Oct 05, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

After this change I will still hear R9++ VIMWAY lf r9++ only, show title... groups.

Patccmoi · Oct 06, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrs poor

Some people are saying that this 6v6 creates creativity which imo is wrong. Its not that i disagree with changing hoh to 6v6 its just that it takes away Alot of creativity because think about.

You have 2 monks in a build and a warrior/thumper that leaves you with 24 skills to play with substract the rez sigs. Thats 21 skills you can play around with the create a build 21 skills out of the possible 8 prof(not counting warrior and monks). Thats without counting any defence skills which you will be forced to take to have any chance at holding even a little which means now you have 19 skills to play with. So 19 skills whats the best possibilty of course degen so its all going to be condition degen 1 apply 1 melebrus and 1 spirit spammer with fertile+symb(the 2 defence skills out of the 21). Wow great so all your going to see is condition builds with no creativity.

I think you already lost most of your creativity if you think every team build needs 2 monks + 1 warrior to achieve something... and that's not just talking about things like vimway gimmicks, you can do a lot of pretty balanced builds without having that at all. Resto Rt are worth monks, and actually in 6v6 you don't absolutely need 2 dedicated healers. 1 dedicated healer (monk or resto rt) + some support healing/defense is actually fine, that's all we had in the weekend to win halls and hold it a couple of times.

While i understand why top HA players are pissed with the change, i also actually understand why ANet doesn't specifically listen to you too. Obviously the top HAers won't want HA model to change because they adapted to it and like it as it is. There are people liking every game type because it fits their play style, i'm sure some people would care if Jade Quarry changed because they like it and they're likely the best players in it... mostly because they're pretty much alone. This is what is happening in HA really, the population is declining and what's left is top HA guilds who mass fame and fame farmers who don't really know what else to do and join gimmick groups trying to gain rank as if it meant something. When i joined PuG a while ago most people were talking as if they would leave HA as soon as they got their emote... I'm pretty sure that if TA gave fame (i'm NOT saying it should) HA would be totally empty out of a few guilds. Most PuGers don't play it because they really like it, they play it because they want some rank emotes.

Should ANet listen to these few guilds, or try to improve the place so that a larger part of the player base enjoy it and want to compete in it? And i'm not just talking about PvErs, i'm pretty sure most GvG/TA players will now be VERY happy to go in HA to compete with the new model (i know i will and many others i play with will too, and they're not newb rankless pvers who never played PvP and will quit after 3 games). You can say people didn't want to adapt, but maybe they didn't want to adapt because they found it boring as hell, not because they were unable. And if a majority of players find the place boring, i think something had to be done. Was it the good move, we'll know in the next weeks/months, but you can't honestly say it isn't. It's not for you and your friends maybe, but you're not the GW PvP population as a whole.

And i don't believe actually that they listen to masses of 'newb pvers' either, they're evaluating what they see, the ratio of people playing (which i suspect they have all the statistics on, i doubt you do), the decline of HA population, and try to do what they think is best to improve it. Something lead them to try the 6 players weekend in the first place, and it wasn't a poll. If they didn't think of doing this on their own and saw good reasons to do so, there would never have been this event. The change isn't a result of that weekend event, the weekend event was just a test to see how the player base would react to it and how it would look on a larger scale, if there was blatant imbalances, etc. I think their decision was pretty much made BEFORE the event. You think they reworked all the maps in a rush? I think it was all started before the event even took place.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Oct 06, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Because such posts are a minority in this thread. Most of support comes from gvg players on ego trips ( "you're scum, whiners" ), and envious RA/PVE noobs.

Those who oppose the change in this thread are usually the best of the best tombs players ( i'm too humble to consider my guild as such, talking about sOap, EaT, PUFF, and Err7 players who posted here - some were even banned for this ( hi EaT Macros! ) ) . And no, we dont bspike or IWAY. Its like HA equivalent of [EVIL], [iQ], [Te]. We know whats going on in there, and developers choose to ignore us, and mods tried to remove our concerns from those boards, and silence us ( two previous threads with many posts from us deleted ). Paragraph 22 ftw....Makes you think about future of the game...

I'm not a GvG player on an ego trip, and I'm not an envious RA/PvE noob.

I support the change.